CHAT LOG SNIPPET
### Richard Heart
I think the important thing to note here
is that in normal l2 (Layer 2) stuff people have built on hex
They get peoples hex out of their hands and they dump them
so the HEXicans get less hex.
and the price gets hurt too
In this potential system (HexBay.win), if you’re using hex to buy differently encapsulated HEX, you’re not taking away USD demand
because you have to buy the HEX in the first place
or not sell existing hex you already have
so there’s no other ticker symbol sucking away economic energy
and benefitting non HEXicans
### Earl
Correct
### Richard Heart
A .3% fee is vastly, vastly, a better deal than any other l2 thing I’ve heard of, so it’s a .3% in and a .3% out dev profit I think total?
### Earl
Correct, but only if you sell a stake
### Richard Heart
So if your stake just ends normally the cost to user was just .3%?
### Earl
Correct, and we plan to have it 0% fee for the first 30 days
### Richard Heart
Logically, I think it might work
the fee seems affordable
Here’s another way to look at the system
users are buying put options.
They normally would have to pay full EES (Emergency End Stake) to get out. But now they paid .3% up front to get the put option to sell their stake to the market with a 10% fee.
Then the market decides whether it wants to buy that stake or not.
### Richard Heart
There could be the case that your idea gets no traction
In which case, it would be useful for users to be able to emergency end stake normally through the l2?
### Earl
If it gets no traction… people have 5,555 day stakes. They can EES them or they can let them run and endStake normally
### Earl
HexBay gives hardcore Hexicans a new optimal play. To buy stakes from impatient stakers. It’s like traveling back in time and getting the cheap T-Shares
So we get rid of an early impatient adopter and replace him with a hardcore holder that just wasn’t here earlier
### Richard Heart
So at some point an efficient market is just going to figure out that, if you have an audited contract, it might be worth the trade to have a larger attack surface, that you try to buy down the risk with audits, in order to get three times the interest
People message and are like “I don’t understand the 15 year stake thing”, okay I get it, you’re a pleb you don’t understand long term thinking, fine, its okay,
Still a guy like that might want to benefit of being a member of a pool that takes advantage of longer stakes
HexBay.win is a Layer 2 smart contract above HEX
Stakes created with HexBay can be traded!
NOTE: HexBay is currently in testing, and will be released to mainnet after an audit with CoinFabrik is complete (it is in queue to be audited April 2021, the audit should take about a week to finish)
How to Test?
https://togosh.medium.com/hexbay-win-testing-tradeable-hex-stakes-8ab75fbe3618
Provide feedback now before the audit!
Summary: Pay stakers to make a stake tradeable, Pay stakers to trade it, The impatient pay the patient, Stakers always win!
HEX vs HexBay Comparison Calculator:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BA-IRvdWVqlnZcec1488DgSwdXUo-18r_nBBxS5zgAg/edit#gid=0
Join Telegram:
https://t.me/hexbay
Below is a copy of the chat logs of HexBay being introduced to the community (HEX Developer Telegram: https://t.me/HexCryptoDev)
CHAT LOGS
### Earl
Hey guys,
We have been working on a contract for HEX.
We are now pretty much done and will start the public testing phase on Ropsten today [January 19th, 2021].
Would some of you be interested in checking over the code for our contract?
An audit from Coinfabrik is also on its way but maybe you guys are able to find stuff to fix beforehand.
Some additional info regarding our contract:
https://hexbay.medium.com/hexbay-b18eeaefadf
### SY
Refer people and when they start a stake you will receive 4.7% of their staked principal
### Earl
Audit is underway
Public testing will start today, so you guys can play around with it
Someone at some point will make tradable stakes
That’s why we decided to do it “first” and with the Hex Community Values in mind
### Earl
If you sell your stake you will incur a 10% fee.
This fee is then rewarded to ALL stakers (including old stakes) via our SmallPayDay feature
### Earl
We designed it in a way that still pushes Hex price up
If someone wants to buy your stake, he has to buy Hex first
Then buy your stake and the seller only receives 90% of that Hex
so it’s a net positive instead of a price negative
### Earl
If we get the community to adopt HexBay and dismiss 0% fee tradable stake contracts, that would be a win in my opinion
That’s why we are willing to get our contract audited. It’s not cheap, but we hope to make an impact here
Could be huge for adoption if people start referring and get rewarded for their onboarding work
And since our code uses the same methods to store stake data it will be easy to implement our stakes into staker.app and other tracking sites
### Earl
Let’s say you intend to stake for 3 years. Instead of staking for 3 years using the main Hex contract, you can stake for 5,555 day using HexBay. That way you will get more T-Shares and thus more Interest. Then after 3 years you can sell your stake, pay a 10% fee and still walk away with more Hex.
Also you can choose to sell sooner, later or never. So you gained a lot of flexibility.
Additionally we also address something I have read of a lot in the Hex chats.
Compromised wallets. On the main contract, you are pretty much fucked.
HexBay gives you the opportunity to transfer your stakes to another non-compromised wallet
### Crypto Knight
In a perfect world you will have stakes ending every month while you cash out the interest and stake the rest to another 15 years. As long as other people do that you will always get salary and everyone wins no matter what
### Earl
But that is impossible for the first 15 years
Every stake you make now, that is less than 15 years is worse than a stake made through HexBay and while you and me maybe always stake for 15 years, most people don’t
### Crypto Knight
But that’s the game theory, If I wanted to get interest I would just go to other contract and do it and leave when ever I want. Why do I need to lock it?
### Earl
I don’t understand what you are trying to say, can you rephrase it?
### Crypto Knight
When you lock it you don’t think about selling that’s the whole point,
when you give people an exit they will use it
### Crypto Knight
I know there is no way around it and more apps like yours will come up
I hope it benefit more than destroy
### Earl
That’s why we designed it to appreciate the Hex value and not destroy it
if someone sells, they pay a 10% fee that gets redistributed to all stakers
### Nenad
Pretty nice game theory you got there. It indeed sounds like it may have price positive pressure, if adopted, but it’s actually hard to predict the actual result in practice, particularly on the long term.
I like its complex game theory, mainly because I would’ve thought it is impossible to make something positive from making tradable bonds out of HEX.
One thing is certain, unless we have a positive first mover in this direction, we will have a negative one, or many.
### Nenad
The SmallPayDay function is a remarkable solution to the stake devaluation danger from tradable stakes. And the bid/ask market based on HEX currency is also a nice trick.
We need to run some mental simulations though.
Would be nice if we could run Monte-Carlo simulations to see how changing % parameters and participation / adoption rate affects the demand & supply of HEX. But it’s near impossible. Way too many possible gaming patterns and interactions between the two contracts.
### Earl
If adopted it would definitely increase average stake length and locked Hex supply. Which will increase scarcity.
Then impatient people can sell their stakes early, but get penalized for it.
While patient people reap in their fees as rewards AND get the opportunity to actually buy the stakes from impatient people.
Giving honest long term stakers a new and “improved” way to increase their T-Shares
If you guys want to play around
Contract/Website:
https://hexbay.win/
Just switch over to Ropsten Testnet and you can Mint 1M Hex under the “Mint” tab. Then you can start staking, testing referral, transfer, sell and buy
How to Test?
https://togosh.medium.com/hexbay-win-testing-tradeable-hex-stakes-8ab75fbe3618
Telegram:
https://t.me/hexbay
### Nermoria
Although personally I don’t like the idea of this, the more products we have built over Hex, the more it gets solidified. In my opinion better this way than “other paths” certain people have taken. At the end of the day, the whole planet is the pool of onboarding potential, as long as everyone uses Hex as the underlying asset/contract, it would be nice to see these develop region specific like Russian, Indian, Korean etc
### Patrick
So why over 1B of penalties in the first year? seems that with enough price-up people still press the red button.
We cannot close our eyes and pretend that nobody could do a smart contract where you can send your stakes. That’s why I agree in doing it ourselves. Better we do it right as a community than getting another copycat.
Getting the audit is a good commitment for me in the first place. I will interview Earl in the coming weeks so if you have specific questions please go ahead and write me a PM.
### Crypto Knight
I said no one can stop people from doing it and if you have to choose to have it or not I will choose not to have it in general.
Whether if that change that changed the game or effect the price the wrong way you will never know untill you see adoption
### AXiS
HexBay has potential. I think this sounds better than collateralized stakes.
Get the hard work and testing done so we can get a live staking marketplace out there in the wild. The thing that separated 2017 from 2020 were the tools available to people. If we can get that 4 years of work done in the next 6 months we can harness the power of the BTC bull cycle to its maximum. Get Kyle and the other devs involved. If the contract is good they will see it right away.
### Codeak
This is going to be interesting
Why not make the .3% fee go to the OA (Origin Address)?
### Earl
We chose a small fee (0.3% like UniSwap) and have been designing the contract for a few months now. Also we want to cover the audit costs if possible
### Crypto Knight
Sorry I was hard on you before, the more I read it the more I like it. So you sell 15 years stakes to other people so the stakes still there that’s cool and it’s not a new token crap it uses hex as the main thing.
So sorry if I was too harsh on it
### Earl
No worries, thanks a lot!
### Hextopia
Even though HEX stakers benefit from this, it makes no damn sense to me why anyone actually using a service would choose to pay a 10% fee over a 0% one. Capitalism always prevails in these situations.
Maybe you could make that work in the short-term, but in the long-term? I don’t think so
### Earl
If it’s in their interest that their bags are getting pumped, they can easily take part in our contract
Yeah sure, it’s a risk and it’s up to the community
We could build it with 0 fees….but I think it would be worse that way
### Hextopia
I think trade-able stakes are a net positive for HEX. Your stakes are still locked for the future; just because you can move them doesn’t you can sell them. New buyer? Okay, now what? The stake is still staked. That event itself is a net neutral event, but the fact that you can now leverage these stakes bring massive potential. Loan services, betting, funding and more could all be built around the ecosystem, using HEX as collateral.
The price stability from HEX being less prone to flash crashes makes it a superior alternative to Ethereum for collateral.
Just another use case aside from Store of Value of course. Obviously HEX is volatile today because we’re still early, but technically we should be more stable than Bitcoin itself if we were put next to each other in terms of users.
### Earl
It’s true. And we thought about using a 0% fee.
In fact we thought about everything HexBay a LOT.
In the end, that’s the design we came up with.
It rewards patient people, it punishes impatient behavior. It pushes the Hex price up, it increases the locked supply.
If you are an honest staker you pay pretty much no fee.
If your wallet gets hacked you can transfer your stakes
### Earl
If we manage to get a meaningful userbase, compared to 0% fee contracts, it would be a major benefit.
Because that way you can be sure, or more sure, that someone will actually buy your stake
And we also found a way to increase the value of “legacy stakes” with our SmallPayDay function
### Hextopia
As I understood HexBay, it’s an initiative to make the best out something you guys think is negative for the price. I too had a negative outlook on it initially and have extensively been considering Transferable Stakes for months now. I don’t believe in socialism though; trying to control the market generally works out poorly imo.
### Earl
It has nothing to do with socialism. It’s still a free market, people can choose to use whatever they like.
If most people of the community use one platform that’s up to them
### Luke
It kills the value proposition of acquiring early T-Shares.
For the future.
It dilutes everybody that’s not doing a 5555.
It kills the commitment & reward of doing long stakes.
Since you can get the reward of high interest without the commitment.
I don’t like the idea at all.
### Firebun
I feel similarly
### Earl
You have to realize that tradable stakes will happen. Whether you like it or not.
With a contract like HexBay we would have a system that enhances stakes with new features while also rewarding “legacy stakes” via the SmallPayDay.
HexBay removes value from impatient people and rewards patient stakers.
It helps with onboarding new users via the referral system.
People that get hacked will be able to at least save their stakes.
It will increase average stake length and the total locked Hex supply
We have designed everything to be a net positive for the Hex ecosystem
### Luke
Your idea doesn’t prevent another tradeable stakes system from someone else that’s more beneficial to the individual and bad for HEX price or as a whole.
### Crypto Knight
That’s the only thing that positive about it. That either way it will happen from other devs if he didn’t do it. So if you have solution for this problem (how to block people from doing so) better join than fight them. In the end of the day it is not the hex contract, and people can choose to risk it on his chain, but no one can stop anyone from doing so
### Firebun
Refer system and saving hacked addresses is possible without this. I think the point is you’re shifting buying power off the spot price and onto this new contract.
Additionally, users lose ability to manage stakes through existing interfaces
### Crypto Knight
Main problem- how do you stop someone from doing what he just did?
### Firebun
Well how do users stake today? None of them support this
So you’d probably need community buy in for it to have adoption
### Crypto Knight
Some will that’s the market to decide, pretty sure that if the community won’t support this idea it won’t get any traction but we don’t know what the market wants
### Firebun
Yup. No reason to push this is my point
I’m happy with the original design of penalty system
### Crypto Knight
Yea that what I was happy about, penalty system was my main force, you are the bank
### Firebun
We need more users — and I think that has to do with outreach, not penalty system
### Earl
We are not shifting buying power at all. It’s still Hex we are talking about.
HexBay uses the same stake storage that Hex uses.
So existing Interfaces can be easily updated to also support HexBay stake management.
Old stakes can never be traded
### Firebun
What I mean is users would be able to buy existing stakes rather than hex. Also, the stakes being sold aren’t reduced by penalties
An unpenalized stake costs more than hex that ended with penalty
So if the user had bought hex spot it’s more beneficial than an unpenalized running stake
### Luke
The OG system is good. This makes stakes on the OG system worse. Mainly the stakes started after the new contract gets deployed. But also dilutes existing stakes.
### Nermoria
Only way I see this working is in parallel. People who like the idea/product onboard others via that route. I don’t see (nor would I want to see) current community and Richard pushing for this other way. Its an option for those who really want that but that’s about it
### Earl
If people want to buy stakes they have to buy them in Hex. So they are in fact buying Spot.
If they sell a stake, they pay a 10% Fee that gets distributed to all stakers via EmegencyEndStake penalties
### Luke
They are getting a discount on Tshares.
If they wanted to get the same amount of Tshares in the OG system they would have needed to buy more HEX.
Also the fact that the guy selling the stake gets liquid HEX out of it.
In the OG system you would have had two guys with ongoing stakes.
In this new proposed system you end up with one 5555 stake that dilutes payout for stakers and people playing hot potato with this stake.
And the other guy with liquid HEX.
### Nenad
This is complex game theory.
What I’m more worried of, is that the staking length would prolong causing reduction in interest, if this contract gets adoption. But then this also means more coin scarcity and more demand, so… not so trivial to predict.
### Shane
Feels like this would be bad for current stakers due to the incentive to always create 5555 stakes on the 2nd contract but also means it’s positive for long term circulating supply reduction
### Luke
because you have to buy stakes with HEX makes it net positive doesn’t compute for me. That would make buying Bitcoin to buy something and the vendor selling the Bitcoin after purchase also net positive. But nobody makes that argument
### Shane
Seems just like a neutral event to me. Someone buys hex to buy a stake. Seller of stake gets liquid hex and presumably dumps it right away.
### Luke
It isn’t neutral compared to in the OG system TWO guys having to buy HEX and stake it.
Here you have one guy buying and the other one selling.
The valid comparison is:
Two guys buying and nobody selling to one guy buying and one guy selling. (Added caveat that it’s less net negative because of 97% redist and 3% dev fee)
That ain’t neutral. That’s straight up worse. :)
### Shane
I see your point. Basically gives people a shortcut to more tshares without proportional commitment. Hmmm yeah this is something to think about
### Luke
Just because one of two guys has bought at a different time doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be taken into account.
One buy in the past + one buy in the present vs. one buy and one sell in present at roughly the same time.
### iQCash
I’m not arguing either way, but if HEX was meant to be an exact equivalent to a bank CD, staking from contract addresses should have been blocked.
### Richard Heart
I prefer people can build on it
or at least, I hope, that cool things will be built on it
### Earl
What you really should compare it to is people buying and selling for free.
Because that’s what will happen If HexBay does not get adoption from the community.
I am with you. Compared to OG staking everything else is worse for the ecosystem BUT contracts can interact with Hex and they will.
So we have a choice here.
By the way you leave out one pretty likely scenario:
Let’s assume someone intents to stake for 5 years but stakes 5555 days instead via HexBay.
He would earn about 50% more interest (which is an advantage for the individual user) but once he sells ~10% get redistributed. If the next User sells that stake again, another ~10% get redistributed.
At some point this 5555 stake becomes a net ecosystem positive stake
The more impatient people are the better for the ecosystem, just like today with EES penalties
### Luke
So let‘s get adoption first
Before we make the product worse
This doesn‘t help with onboarding new users either.
### Earl
Look, we won’t get anywhere. We have thought about everything you said and came to a different solution. So let’s just agree to disagree.
For adoption we will have a 4.7% referral program
### Luke
Of course you already spent money on this so… :)
Your mind is already made up.
I just think this “hey look at that thing that sucks, others might build it so let‘s just build that thing ourselves” approach is not smart. It doesn‘t stop others from building another one that’s even less favorable game theory wise
### Earl
Most of our time has been spent to improve the game theory to a point that it’s beneficial for the individual user and beneficial to the ecosystem.
We came here to give you guys a heads up and present our work. And the option to give us feedback/review our code.
### Crypto Knight
I don’t really liked the idea to begin with.
And I don’t think anyone can stop him from doing so.
So let’s just say that we won’t support projects like those in the future. That way they can pay for adoption for them self and if there is market fit (which won’t) good for them
### Crypto Knight
Like let’s face it, if you don’t want to lock your coins hold them. If you want to stake them obligate
### Richard Heart
Read this thread
### Earl
Thanks @RichardHeart
Here are some of my counter arguments:
“The issue is that price appreciate is a function of buyers being forced to purchase from a small pool of coins available.
When their purchasing power is instead spread across a new pool of coins, it should reduce the price movement upwards.
Where as the pool was made small by staking causing coins to be NON PURCHASABLE
turning staked coins into purchasable coins reverses the utility of staking in the first place.”
If people start using HexBay and start locking their coins for 5,555 days en masse; it would definitely decrease the number of purchasable coins.
Additionally, every time someone wants to buy a HexBay stake they would have to buy 100% Hex first. The person selling their stake will only receive 90% Hex.
So we have another positive price pressure here while not inflating the number of coins available to buy.
“The only circumstance where that sucktitude would be cancelled out, is one where, as you say, 2nd order things increased adoption so much to as exceed the extra 2nd order supply.”
I really believe that this would be the case here. I know most of our community are patient people with long time horizons. But that’s not true for most of the people that are NOT in Hex.
The ability for them to sell their stake prematurely would be an enticing factor for them to actually get into Hex. And the more a stake get’s passed around, the better for the Hex economy because of the 10% fee and SmallPayDay.
Additionally HexBay offers a meaningful referral program to get people interested in shilling the fuck out of Hex.
Another thing that came up a lot is compromised wallets. With HexBay people with compromised wallets can save their stakes by transferring them to a new address.
“The other concern would be one of attack surface.”
That’s a main concern. That’s why we are getting audited by Coinfabrik. That’s why we posted here so interested devs could have a look at the code.
Would love to hear additional feedback from you
### Richard Heart
You’ve got some of this stuff backwards, Perhaps all
The EES feature protects the HEX network from users whose wallets have been attacked, because the impatience of the attackers causes them to receive nothing
### Earl
Sometimes it does, that's true. but most of the time hackers don’t realize that there is Hex staked.
### Richard Heart
Where in the case of people being able to sell their stakes, the hackers would receive all the funds, dump them on market, harm the HEX price and be enriched for evil
### Earl
But they would not dump the price, because someone has to buy the Hex first to be able to buy the stake
### Richard Heart
In the majority of hacks I’ve looked at, they EES’d and didn’t leave anything behind
2nd why would someone sell for only 90% HEX?
The staker app is likely to beat any other referral programs out there due to non crypto billing and mobile app
Basically, you want to make money on hexicans
we’ve seen this before
it’s always worked out terribly for the hexicans
### Earl
Because if it’s adopted and had the highest number of users they could be certain that their stake gets actually bought
### Richard Heart
If you were able to reach some userbase with HEX that hasn’t already been reached, and they saw value in your offer, then you could be of use in onboarding with whatever your “value add” is
However, what we’ve seen in the past, is basically, just existing HEXicans being harvested into the new extra risk, and lose money thing.
### Earl
I know, I have seen that shit time and time again
It would make it simple for new users. They don’t have to learn about stake ladders. They don’t miss out on T-Shares because they can stake for 5,555 days.
### Richard Heart
I believe the idea is harmful to HEX.
Imagine that one god whale, that staked a couple billion for 15 years
imagine he’d used your idea
now instead of coins taken off market 100% for years
now you have coins that could be sold, nearly entirely, at any moment
### Earl
The coins are still taken off the market for 15 years
### Richard Heart
The difference to the HEX ecosystem between those two things is massive
because they are literally for sale, after they pay your skim
whenever someone wants
### Earl
Someone would still have to buy that stake for that amount of Hex first
### Richard Heart
By the way, you understand you’re just rather remaking what Trevon already made?
### Earl
No, Trevon did other things but it’s really different to our product
### Richard Heart
Well man, if you could link me to what your product is
I’d be able to reason more usefully about it
### Richard Heart
“Ability to transfer your stake (if your wallet got compromised or as a gift)” this is the funniest one
Ability to see hacker steal 100% the value of your stuff, instead of not getting the long stakes
“Stakes can only be bought with HEX.” This is actually an interesting idea
### Earl
We added this feature because the community asked for it.
Because a lot of the time the hackers just empty the wallet but don’t actually check for Hex stakes
Thanks, like I said, we really put time into the economics
### Richard Heart
After a cursory glance, here’s my thoughts
### Richard Heart
1. Contract Attack surface.
2. If you get any traction, you’ll start selling them other stuff (like hxy and trevon did)
3. Your front end won’t be as distributed (more counter party risk)
4. Existing stakers don’t make any EES from people in your system (unless you get hacked lol)
5. The users only get 100–1% — 0.3%= 98.7% UNLESS they actually USE the only advantage offered, in which case they lose another 10%. = 88.7%. #wrapped #encapsulated
### Richard Heart
Now you’ll say those losses will be made up partially buy the smallpayday
so I have to math them
There’s also some extra yield from the longer stake vs a shorter stake
### Earl
2. We won’t build other tokens etc. We are deep into Hex since day one. That’s why we put the time in
Yes you can math that. Also keep in mind that the individual user will make more Interest for shorter stakes. So that’s a bonus for individual stakers. Instead of staking for 3 years they can stake for 5,555 days and take the 10% fee but still be positive
And we store stakes the same way Hex does. so every tracking site, including go.hex.com COULD easily show the HexBay stakes as well
### Richard Heart
Well, at a cursory glance, the can only buy with HEX feature, seems to be a saving grace
Possible summary, Correct if wrong
System creates 5555 stakes, encapsulated, which can be traded. Extra shares from that system generate extra yield. That extra yield is used to advertise to people to stake in the l2 instead of l1.
L1 sees this as perfect user behavior. Longest stakes possible
But your system doesn’t mandate 5555
They can choose whatever length they like
### Earl
At the moment they can, but it would devalue their stake.
It is also easily possible to mandate 5,555 days
### Richard Heart
Let’s pretend there was no skim
and it was just a market to sell stakes for only hex.
Sellers will always have to sell above the value of their EES. Or they would just EES.
Buyers will always have to buy below what they could just make their own new stake for.
I think this math is wrong:
If you pay a 10% fee on the total
you need QUITE a lot of extra interest to cancel that out
### Earl
We introduced the 10% skim to penalize imperfect behaviour. We went back and forth a LOT about the fee and if we should introduce one.
The benefits are:
Hex price gets pushed up instead of down.
All stakers will receive EES rewards from the SmallPayDay
The disadvantages:
People could copy the code and make it 0%
### Richard Heart
I would need to see a hard example on that one
### Earl
I made a google spreadsheet
### Richard Heart
I don’t see that it’s a day thought? isn’t it a constant running thing?, “divs”
### Earl
It’s a function everybody can run. It starts a 5,555 stake with the total contract balance (-dev fee) and sets a 3 day timer. After the 3 days everyone can end that stake using the same function
We made it that way to truly include everyone
and it needs a timer to be staked for at least 1 day
so there are EES nukings happening
### Richard Heart
I don’t understand the SmallPayDay thing
Can you better explain it?
### Earl
It is a function that will start a 5,555 day stake using the contracts Hex balance. This stake is owned by the HexBay contract.
It also sets a 3 day timer.
If you run the function again, after the 3 day timer is over, it will EES that stake.
It will also start a new 5,555 day stake and reset the 3 day timer
Everyone, meaning every user, can run this function
### Richard Heart
Doesn’t that just nuke the stake?
### Earl
correct and thus reward EVERY staker and the OA (Origin Address)
it redistributes Hex from impatient people to patient honest stakers
### Richard Heart
So far I see two things that are interesting
1. Can only pay in hex.
2. The EES that the stakers get starved less of, as it gets replaced with a different EES, the 10% fee, and 97% of that gets nuked back to normal stakers
Did I get that process right?
### Earl
You got it!, including “legacy stakes”
### Richard Heart
So from the l1 (Layer 1) perspective
there would be more smaller EES (EmergencyEndStakes)
because instead of 100%, you’d get 10%
I think the thing to remember here
is that to the market, any EES hurts price
because they sell what they get
AND the other stakers get more coins too, which they can then sell.
it seems like the OA and addresses it sends to haven’t publically sold any coins
### Earl
They can’t sell. They only get the coins if they are staked
and they get them as interest for that day
A normal EES gets dumped on the market.
A sold stake only gets 90% Hex AND someone had to buy 100% Hex first
### Richard Heart
Yeah, some permutation of this could be viable
gut feel
I mean it might even be viable as is
the has to pay with HEX part is the magic I think
### Earl
Thank you, it means a lot hearing that from you
### Richard Heart
and the pays normal stakers is also awesome
### Richard Heart
What would it look like if you replaced it with coin burning?
### Earl
You mean burning the 10% fee instead of giving it to active stakers?
### Richard Heart
Yep
### Earl
We could simply send them to 0x0 but it would take away bonus rewards for honest stakers
I mean….50% go to the OA anyway
and the OA has never sold
### Earl
Here is the link to the spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BA-IRvdWVqlnZcec1488DgSwdXUo-18r_nBBxS5zgAg/edit?usp=sharing
### Richard Heart
Well it’s like, they’re already sitting on 40–60% interest the mid and long guys
### Earl
Edit only the yellow columns
### Richard Heart
So the extra yield from this system might be imperceptable (tiny)
but the idea of coin burning is a new narrative
which some love
### Earl
True, but it might lead to a much higher % locked Hex
### Richard Heart
So there’s probably more value in that
Which is fine, or better than fine, if the “gains” are shifted from coin yield to usd price yield, as that looks better on the chart
As you can tell from bpd (BigPayDay), it takes a nuanced investor to understand what can’t be seen on the chart.
All the chart shows is dip, but holders that got 100% more coins
are happy as fuck
I think coin burn narrative would be more valuable
since hex hasn’t had one yet
I mean we have coin burn light
in that coins are burnt on stake
### Earl
We can do that for sure
that's why we came here, to discuss with the community
### Richard Heart
Trevons game was novel in that it staked while you “played”
your system is novel in that stakes can only be bought with HEX
and the fee benefitting L1 HEX through burn, or l1 EES.
those are the two novel components I see
### Richard Heart
I think a .3% on stake is totally reasonable
Metamask charges .8% on swap
### Earl
That’s what we figured as well
### Richard Heart
I think coin burn is going to be better than paying existing stakers
### Nenad
The coin burning via 0x0… address in HEX may be a risky thing. We should assess its impact on longterm. The reason is in that the HEX contract can’t annihilate coins. If sent to 0x0… they are still accounted in total hex and thus remain in inflation basis. If half distributed to OA (assuming it doesn’t sell them), they are at least still circulating and thus their impact potentially remediated.
The drawback is that HexBay contract would increase interest to the staker class (5% redistributed as daily payout at each resell). This could end up on the market as stakes mature. But on the other hand there’s the counterforce that reduces daily payouts: the prolongation of average staking length, which has a huge impact on share deflation postponement.
### Richard Heart
coins burnt at 0x0 will still be counted for inflation
someone check the code to verify, IIRC inflation is paid on all coins that have ever been minted
### Earl
If you guys want, we can also talk about this and all the implications. Instead of getting burned fingers from the writing marathons xD
### Richard Heart
What happens to a coin after it is minted has no effect on inflation.
### Nenad
Our game simulation master @RapidPrototripe should have a look at this.
### Earl
I already contacted him
when he finds the time he would look over it
that’s what he said
### Nenad
I’m sure they are. We already had this discussion with Kyle and he confirmed my suspicion that HEX coins cannot be burnt, at least not completely as in annihilated.
Yes. It will exist for eternity at least in inflation basis
### Earl
They are getting counted for inflation
### Graf
More tshares mean higher price (HEX) for the stake
### Richard Heart
I think the important thing to note here
is that in normal l2 shit poeple have built on hex
They get peoples hex out of their hands and they dump em
so the HEXicans get less hex.
and the price gets hurt too
In this potential system, if you’re using hex to buy differently encapsulated HEX, you’re not taking away USD demand I don’t think
because you have to buy the HEX in the first place
or not sell existing hex you already have
so there’s no other ticker symbol sucking away economic energy
and benefitting non HEXicans
### Earl
Correct
### Richard Heart
A .3% fee is vastly, vastly, a better deal than any other l2 thing I’ve heard of,
so it’s a .3% in and a .3% out dev profit I think total?
### Earl
Correct, but only if you sell a stake
### Richard Heart
So if your stake just ends normally the cost to user was just .3%?
### Earl
Correct, and we plan to have it 0% fee for the first 30 days
### Richard Heart
The other things have left such a bad taste in our mouth
that it’s really quite hard to feel good about it lol
logically, I think it might work
mind you I have only known about it for like an hour
the fee seems affordable
so I guess the risk here, that I didn’t cover earlier, would be more coins hitting market from the weaker locks
Here’s another way to look at the system
users are buying put options.
They normally would have to pay full EES to get out. But now they paid .3% up front to get the put option to sell their stake to the market with a 10% fee.
Then the market decides whether it wants to buy that stake or not.
There could be the case that your idea gets no traction
In which case, it would be useful for users to be able to emergency end stake normally through the l2?
### Earl
If it gets no traction… people have 5,555 day stakes. They can EES them or they can let them run and endStake normally
### Earl
It also gives hardcore Hexicans a new optimal play. To buy stakes from impatient stakers. It’s like traveling back in time and getting the cheap T-Shares
So we would get rid of an early impatient adopter and replace him with a hardcore holder that just wasn’t here earlier
### James L
Yeah I really like the added benefits to it.
My biggest concern with this would be the security/trust factor I would need to place in this. If any.
### Earl
That’s why we are getting audited by Coinfabrik
we are also Hexicans from day 1 and we know that security is of the utmost importance
### Nenad
This is the part that worries me most. If adopted, HexBay would cause the slowing down of total shares deflation and prolong average staking length. This has global L1 consequences that are not to be dismissed at first glance.
### Earl
Yes, that’s also the reason we did not want to launch too early into the lifecycle of Hex. Now a lot of stakes are made. Pretty much every day stakes are ending and pushing the T-Share price up
### Nenad
That’s why I said that important parameters, like the SPD (SmallPayDay) redistribution percentage, should be optimized.
### Earl
Coinfabrik has some backlog of audits, so we still have time to adjust numbers and test around even more
In our testings we found that 10% is a good balance between individual benefit and platform benefit
### Nenad
Can you share how you did the evaluation?
### Earl
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BA-IRvdWVqlnZcec1488DgSwdXUo-18r_nBBxS5zgAg/edit?usp=sharing
Here you can calculate the different outcomes for different amounts and stake lengths. Just make a copy and input your data into the yellow fields
### James
The referral program is calculated based on what exactly?
### Earl
Stake principal
If your referral stakes 100k you will receive 4.7k
### James
Is it staked for the same time frame? Or liquid skim?
### Earl
Liquid
### James
If there is no referral then what?
### James
0% fee?
### Earl
If you self refer you only pay 0.3% fee
If you use no referral the 4.7% are collected in the HexBay contract for the SPD (SmallPayDay) feature
### James
Ahh perfect! That's what I was going to suggest. You always need it the ref and non ref fees to match so that it aligns incentives and people don’t feel screwed by using a ref link.
### Earl
Yep!
### James
And you have a good point on other people building this if you didn't.
Best to do it the right way than allow bad actors to fuck it up for people.
### James
Just a suggestion:
In addition to the link, have a ref code box too.
Because if I refer someone on mobile, and they use desktop, I am screwed
### Luke
Yeah but the guy selling the stake gets liquid HEX and guess what‘s happening with that.
It‘s just like buying crypto to pay for something.
### Earl
It’s still net positive. someone buys 100k and someone sells 90k
### James
Yeah technically its worse because its deviating from the current system setup
But the point to remember here is… this will get made eventually
### Earl
Correct
### Earl
If you compare a HexBay stake to a basic L1 stake, then it is probably worse. but then again: someone might actually stake on HexBay and would not have staked on L1
If a HexBay stake gets traded multiple times it can become an overall net positive impact
### James
Earl, you are gonna get a lot of flack from people who already staked. But I like the idea, its a good one. Especially buying with HEX part. It adds another layer and a way for holders to accumulate more HEX on HEX.
### Graf Panini
@Luke someone has to buy 100% HEX and the seller only receives 90% HEX = 10% HEX positive
### Earl
If I start a stake for 100k and then sell it for 150k to another guy. That guy had to buy 150k Hex and I will only receive 135k. Thus being net positive by 15k
### James
The price of the sold stakes are entirely market driven. It will likely be at a heavy discount at times.
People may even EES (Emergency End Stake) shorter stakes to buy longer stakes on HexBay
### Earl
Correct
### Graf Panini
In addition a stake can be sold many times. This will accumulate HEX being off the market. 1 time sold = 90% left, 2 times sold = 81% left aso.
### James
I wouldn't seek 100% approval from everyone on this idea. You wont get everyone onboard. Because a decent % of the community is already locked into super long stakes. So they will be pretty anti L2 (Layer 2) solutions
L1 (Layer 1) staking still has advantages, in that you are actually locked in. So that will still be used for people who want that death lock on their stakes as well.
### Richard Heart
I think the biggest problem is that you have people taking over other peoples stakes instead of opening new stakes of their own, which would increase the total staked mass
### Earl
Layer1 Hex:
Person 1 buys 100k Hex stakes for 1 year then dumps 120k
Person 2 buys 130k Hex and stakes for long.
130k Hex locked, 120k Hex dumped
HexBay:
Person 1 buys 100k Hex stakes via HexBay, then sells after 1 year for 130k, then dumps 117k
Person 2 bought the stake for 130k and has a long stake
130k Hex locked, 117k dumped
### Earl
If a stake gets sold again it might become actually truly net positive overall
+ all the added features
+ some people start staking instead of not staking, because they don’t want to commit for long periods
### James
Yeah that's a good point. What will most likely occur is a bunch of people just trading around 5555 stakes.
But the 10% fee would add up over time as well.
### Earl
It could also lead to a Hex shortage because lots of Hex get staked via HexBay
### James
It is tricky though because some of the game theory will be altered quite a bit.
### Nenad
It’s net positive only as long as there’s the SPD (SmallPayDay) mechanism, but someone could fork the contract and eliminate that code.
The immunization against malicious forking of the HEX contract are a great feature (like the OA dispersing coins to numerous addresses and stakes, the copyright protection, strong community…).
Does anyone have ideas on how to implement immunization mechanisms to this HexBay contract? First mover advantage and community blessing come to mind, but honestly that’s not even close to enough. Copyright is only enforceable in regard to centralized entity dependencies, so in this case not really useful.
### Earl
Yep basically first mover advantage, community support and copyright (though that is kind of hard to actually enforce).
If a lot of people use HexBay it will be in a healthy position.
If the community decides against 0% fee forks we should be pretty much golden. Maybe some outliers will use it, but the beauty that comes with lots of user is:
Lots of stakes with different Principals and stake lengths.
So a user can pick and choose a stake that suits their personal preference
### Luke
This is where it gets complicated. When you try to predict user behavior and select specific examples that fit your case i think this is not a sound argument.
The same example doesn‘t work when you got a 5 year stake and the guy buying would come in at year 3. Then not having tradeable stakes would be better.
Also: If you stake only 1 year you get much less interest while people committing longer get more.
Longer pays better doesn‘t mean anything anymore when you can just buy and sell 5555 stakes at will for a small hit.
It hollows out the unique selling proposition of HEX.
Why did we have an economics audit?
So at best there is a timing aspect to when it‘s net positive and when negative.
Depending completely on user behavior.
Welcome to prediction hell :)
### Richard Heart
The idea of you can only buy a stake with HEX, is a little less cool when you think that you already can only buy stakes with HEX
### Nermoria
If you’re trading “old tshares”, how can you be sure the person who sold won’t just go via l1 contract? Or is this only for stakes that will be started with HexBay?
### Patrick
Only with hexbay. L1 stakes can’t move to a different address. Never.
### Nenad
The contract on top stakes on your behalf and thus can transfer the ownership.
### Nermoria
I understand that, I thought I saw it mentioned that HexBay was a way for OGs to take old tshares off of weak hands. I don’t see how that’s possible with L1 stakes, in which case OG already has access to the best price/tshare. Unless we’re talking a few years down the road, and an OG wants a 2021 tshare
### Nermoria
Will definitely be interesting how this plays out in terms of community adoption. I for one would never onboard someone this way. I don’t want the people I bring in to have the ability to sell early, or any of the people they onboard to do that either. And personally I will make sure to teach them in such a way that they wont. At the psychological level, it makes sense for the community to socially reward/respect those that stick to the original way. As long as any secondary way is considered as the “Hexlite” way then I think it’s fine. Own Wallet vs Exchange owned wallet sort of deal. There are people with both but there is a clear understanding which is the more respected/correct way.
### Richard Heart
Shares that always go up on hex price, are cooler than a market where shares can go down in hex price.
### Nenad
It’s bitter-sweet from the HEX ethics viewpoint, if there’s any such thing at all. It introduces the element of speculation to the staking mechanism, but at the same time it also allows those who see the value of shares to secure them from those that only speculated on them.
The good point is that every trade is taxed by 10%, and the tax is distributed to the staker class and OA. Which is like an extension of HEX penalty system. A stake that is traded multiple times can even overcompensate for the share ratio dilution the L1 stakers would have to suffer due to L2.
And at least it is not a derivative, as it is traded in HEX as currency.
### Nenad
It’s like we have to chose the lesser evil, because it’s been obvious since the beginning something like this was coming.
And the worse part is that we can’t even monopolize the lesser evil, because malicious actors will fork the contract, modify parameters and lure greedy speculators.
### Nermoria
True and it’s a free market and all that But, just because something like this is bound to happen doesn’t mean we need to speed it up. For all we know it wouldn’t happen for another 3 years. I think the important part is the social stigma part. If that goes away…
Also this seems like it will (if used enough) introduce the kind of liquidity that will make price appreciation less responsive. Too greasy? Maybe I am way off on that one
In any case seems like it’s out the door . I like the burn idea Richard mentioned. And I do appreciate everyone’s work ,even if I don’t agree with all of it
Just the fact that we’re having these discussions is awesome.
The “burn” mechanic is really really interesting. I’m trying to imagine a point in the future where there are 50 HexBays spread across the globe that cater to their regions, all locking up Hex that can never be touched again. In that sense, I fail to see a negative impact on Hex economics/game theory. It seems like the more people would lose keys to their liquid Hex the better for price/those that don’t. This burning concept is essentially the same thing. Inflation is on coins all ever minted so that part is fine
### Nenad
A HexBay enveloped stake could go trough several hands which means that the burnt hex could be higher than the principal.
### Philippe Dumonet
Regarding transferable hex stakes I have also created a solution, currently it’s deployed on mainnet and I’m the only one using it. No audit yet, have recently started reaching out to auditors.
The rules are kind of different with my version, when you stake your stake is represented by a ERC-721 NFT. This means you can freely transfer your stake as you please and unstake or emergency unstake whenever you like. The current fee is 0.2% of the principal upon staking no other fees.
I think this is especially useful for new users who might be staking for long periods using hot wallets, like this they can later transfer their stakes to more appropriate wallets. Also since it follows the ERC721 standard other developers can easily extend the utility of stakes.
I imagine a future where people stake tons of hex for enormous periods of time thanks to the added assurance of the transferability. Furthermore people who don’t have enough money, in the future might be able to still buy huge stakes by getting a trustless loan where the stake acts as collateral. Or even a simple credit line based on the stake acting as a trustless credit card for hex stakers.
Contracts are open-source and verified on etherscan
### Hextopia
It seems that the narrative might be shifting from a pump-coin to ideal money-coin.
Still getting paid to hold, just not locked in for 15 years no questions asked
Ethereum and Bitcoin has had plenty of those
### Crypto Knight
You are right, when would you want to sell your 15 years stakes? When you think market will go into a bear market.
So it will be just a cycle game and not upwards trend. Because in a bull market you can always buy back those shares for 10% less.
So I get both sides I prefer not to do that just because just re-staking and cashing out your interest enough times makes sure everyone wins already. We got the market already why ruin it.
On the other hand should be an option to sell your stakes but that shouldn’t take adoption from original hex. It’s different market fit
### Nermoria
We’re talking purely about the ability to transfer ownership of a wallet without an easy way for previous owner to access it right? I mean as the concepts behind these things.
Another question to anyone working on these tradeable systems: With Hex l1 staking, I know there are multiple backups upon backups to interact with the contract. In worst case scenario, I can spin up a front end myself if I have to. You lose that ability with any l2 solution do you not?
### Philippe Dumonet
Since it is an ERC721 NFT every stake can be transferred individually and can only be owned/transferred by one address at a time
It’s not a L2 solution it’s simply a smart contract that interacts with the main HEX contract so anyone can spin up an interface for it as well.
It’s already on mainnet, you can check it out if you want and if you’d like I can show you the WIP (Work in Progress) interface
### Earl
You can easily interact with smart contracts using etherscan.
For HexBay specifically: we store stake data the same way L1 does.
So all current tracking/interface sites can also easily show L2 stakes
### Digital Boon
Man, that was a lot to get through. Going to need to digest, but my gut says that more functionally is typically better than less functionality. I have a feeling selling stakes will become a market of its own and to do it effectively buys and sellers are going to need to have metrics similar to the Greeks. I also think It will be perceived as higher risk sort of like options trading is to equities.
It’s A LOT to take in, even for experienced hexicans. I have a headache and I’ve only read the comments above. It’s going to very difficult to explain the upside and downside to the average hex investor and it will add a ton of complexity. I’m really not sure how I feel about it yet, but I do think it’s only a matter of time before these l2 contracts become widespread. I need a drink
### Lewis
I was trying to follow along, but in traditional finance systems, where people would lock money in some way.
Is it actually normal practice to transfer a commitment like that to another party?
Or is there a name for that trade?
Or is this purely an idea thought of based upon hex?
I see people stating that there ‘inevitably is going to be market’
But isn't this just making that market?
And something I was wondering? If people like it or not, are solutions like this actually possible to be prevent?
### Terrance
Richard, I hope you don't let this hexbay guy come in here an fck up everything you worked for. I'm shocked you entertaining the idea.
### Stef
Thought experiment: even if HEX cannot be burned at the protocol level you could imagine someone loading a bit of HEX wrapped in a smart contract that exposes a public function stake(initial_load, 5555). That function can only be called past the stake due date and tries to call the native end stake.
Then tries to restake principal + interest for 5555
(It seems that recursion is possible in solidity)
Since HEX has enough users, you can safely bet that 1 of them will always hit that public function at the appropriate time and some HEX will practically removed from the circulation “forever”, burned.
### Codeak
Won’t this still tick the global hex inflation number on each end stake
### Stef
It depends on the initial load :)
### Codeak
What’s initial load?
### Graf Panini
This is what hexbays SmallPayDay function exactly does
### Stef
Haha, first time I hear of it.
Who is behind this effort?
### Graf Panini
we talked about that yesterday right in here
### Stef
Man I’m busy building, just quickly skimming here once a while
### Graf Panini
Check it out: https://t.me/hexbay
There you will find the medium post describing everything you need to know
@xStef or check it out directly:
https://hexbay.medium.com/hexbay-b18eeaefadf
### Bloo Bum
As a non-dev but someone at the coal face of on boarding no coiners I’d just like to point out that having another contract with more options and risks and things to understand will not go down well with no coiners. It’s already very very hard (scary) for no coiners to grasp the hex system and how to use it. Staker looks like it’s going to simplify on boarding. But hexbay looks way too complicated for on boarding. This won’t be getting no coiners. I think being able to transfer stakes or wallets if you get hacked would be great but because we cant it just means we have to double down on warning people of the risks.
### Earl
It’s pretty much the same pitch.
Only that with HexBay people get more interest and flexibility.
It is still Hex at core
### Nenad
It’s a contract on top of HEX.
HEX cannot be changed. Its code is immutable.
In my opinion, what we need to do about HexBay and any other contract built on top is to have an open discussion on how it could potentially affect the HEX ecosystem economy. As a community we need to take responsibility on what to favour and what to disfavor.
If the game theory is hexican compatible and positive, then it is correct to endorse it. If it is incompatible with hexican ethics and has a net negative impact, then it should not be endorsed and potentially warned against (like we treated the gambling dapps).
But this is no simple task. HexBay is based on complex game theory. It is no easy task to figure out the implications.
### Earl
I would gladly have a meeting with all interested people, where we can talk about the implications etc
### Philippe Dumonet
Isn’t transferability especially important for newcomers?
Especially since they likely won’t have a hardware wallet yet
### Richard Heart
If I wanted shares to be transferrable
I would have specified that at the start
### James
Its kind of a pumpamental if they don't learn enough about security.
### Philippe Dumonet
What do you mean?
### James
Well lets think about it…
They get hacked, their coins get pushed into the future.
They lose their keys, their coins get distributed to other people.
They fuck up in any way, its a plus.
### Philippe Dumonet
Except for the fact that they may never touch crypto ever again let alone hex after an event like that.
A hacker emergency unstaking and dumping the unlocked tokens on the market isn’t really that positive either
### Richard Heart
It helps the hackers get paid more
Right now the hackers don’t get paid the coins that are locked (for long stakes)
if stakers were transferrable, they would
### Philippe Dumonet
I don’t think that matters to the average user,
if they get hacked they lose everything either way,
with transferability they at least have the option to secure their stake down the line.
### Earl
It kind of depends on by whom people get hacked
If it’s just a bot that sweeps all coins, the stakes would stay untouched
as we have seen numerous times now
If it’s someone doing it the “hard” way in a one-on-one telegram chat or sth,
they will probably transfer the stake to their address
### Philippe Dumonet
True, the hacker gains more from an attack.
Doesn’t change the fact that the user still loses the same.
### Earl
Still one of the benefits of a transfer is the fact that many people start stakes on hot wallets and only later realize their mistake. With tradeable stakes you could transfer them to a cold wallet/hardware wallet
### Nermoria
On the one hand, it falls on people doing the onboarding to teach the proper ways to mitigate security risks. At the end of the day it’s kind of like, what is more important:
Ability for hacked wallet user to mitigate losses because hacker missed the stakes <-> Defend the system itself (price) from an easier way for hackers to get rewarded
### Nermoria
I have my opinion on which is more important but that’s just me. I can’t think of any real way to do it, but maybe there’s a way to lock out a hacker from the market (say on HexBay) if the account was verifiably hacked. Seems like maybe too difficult for the use case. 15 years from now @ millions of users, probably a different story
### Longqvist
The way I see Hexbay in regard to its HEX price impact is as follows:
With Hexbay a staker sells his stake and the HEX he got for it (why else sell a stake in the first place) this shouldn‘t impact the HEX price apart from the float created, as the buyer paid in HEX, which he needed to purchase on the market.
The part where the HEX price can be hurt is when a stake which otherwise would have gotten nuked, now gets sold via hexbay, matures and then gets dumped on market. Before half of the EES penalty (which can be a sizeable chunk) effectively got burnt (sent to OA), with Hexbay it can end up getting sold on the market, along with all the other interest which was accrued after the EES would have happened without Hexbay.
### Graf Panini
The first part becomes more efficient if the stake gets sold many times
### Crypto Knight
Right, like if they trade it they will sell it more than ones.
More likely to lose 50% in 15 years than someone serve 7 years and EES.
So in a way they will always buy the most profitable long stake on the market.
They are not allowed to buy partial stake right? Like that a whole different game
### Graf Panini
Currently not :D
Stakes can only have 1 owner
### Drew
The beauty of an ecosystem is that anyone can program what they envision. You get to decide if you want to use it. The market will decide if is useful. IMO this is something interesting. Right now the ecosystem is a bunch of ways to dice up data. Don’t cripple interesting projects before they launch. Feels like you are “crypto colluding.”
### TBC Dev
Just as free speech doesn’t entitle one to a podium or soapbox wherever they want, freedom to create doesn’t entitle it to be endorsed and promoted.
### Drew
Nothing needs promoting. If it’s good it will catch on. It’s a sub penny token with an unknown brand. It’s really no big deal. I encourage all to build on top to create a real ecosystem. Projects can help hex out more than hurt it.
### Obiwan Kenobi
So is this a new contract that calls on the hex contract basically?
### Graf Panini
Yes indeed
### Obiwan
Immutable or upgradeable?
### Graf Panini
immutable, and upgradable :D
### Obiwan Kenobi
Single surface or does it have calls to other contracts? (other than HEX)
### Graf Panini
If you would want to run v1, v2 parallel
only interaction with HEX
### Obiwan Kenobi
Is there a plan for gas?
### Graf Panini
You mean gas execution number?
### Obiwan Kenobi
Just being a contract calling a contract is going to make it a little more expensive from the start
### Graf Panini
Correct, but on the other hand, you might start all your stakes for 5555 days and sell whenever you want, no need for creating your own ladder
### Obiwan Kenobi
That is a good benefit — another question
Do these hexbay stakes have a specific stake start time?
Or a “synchronized call” to the hex contract I mean
### Graf Panini
No they are indeed original HEX stakes so the stake officially starts when a day in HEX passes
Users have to open stakes via HexBay, that will start stakes on HEX
100% HEX rules
### Obiwan Kenobi
But the HexBay contract -> call to HEX -> stake start at 00:00 (normal HEX start time)
^ Does this happen immediately, thus sending stakes to the queue all day long? Or do they sync to some time (like 12:00 UTC)?
### Graf Panini
Happens immediately but there is no queue
its like YOU would start a stake on HEX
but in fact the owner of the stake is the HexBay contract. and the HexBay contract credits the stake to you internally
### Obiwan Kenobi
Zksync or rollups at all?
### Graf Panini
I havent dealt with
### Obiwan Kenobi
Sorry I’m asking a lot of questions >_< I’m just thinking out loud about the potential opportunities that could be there for efficiency. HEX is so efficient & beautiful, and part of the reason is the synchronized burns
### Graf Panini
Which burns do you mean?
### Obiwan Kenobi
But in theory, if the main caller of the HEX contract is the HEXBay contract & it could send one giant batch of stakes to the HEX contract at a particular time….it should be as efficient as possible, as opposed to all day long sending stuff to the ETH chain and raising GWEI
The token burning for HEX really takes place @ 00:00 when the stake start officially begins I believe? Otherwise it’s just pending but still cancellable. I could be mistaken
### Graf Panini
This is not correct 100%. The burns happens immediately when a stake starts. But the daily data will be generated after 00:00
or immediately if a stake ends with penalties
### Obiwan Kenobi
I see, well then doesn’t that mean there is in itself a new opportunity if the burns can be synchronized? Extra pump action
### Graf Panini
But that penalty will be distributed as interest after the daily data has been generated
It wouldn't be more efficient in any way. It costs the same amount of gas and it requires somebody to perform the transaction. At current prices I would not want to be that person
###Obiwan Kenobi
The automatic market makers should be there though at least
###Graf Panini
Contracts in ETH cannot do anything on its own
### Obiwan Kenobi
Agreed
### Graf Panini
Nevertheless, HexBay needs less knowledge than HEX itself. And in addition to the onboarding story, HexBay has a referral program, You will get 4.7% for your refers, if they start a stake, you will get 4.7% in HEX immediately
### Obiwan Kenobi
That’s pretty cool
I think the onboarding is the biggest challenge more than anything else, but instant bonus is also good
### Guoliang
Ok, so how does the dev make money and pay for the audit?
### Graf Panini
When starting a stake there is a 0.3% fee, kind of like Uniswap. When selling a stake there is a 0.3% fee as well (included in sell fee, which only hits the seller).
For the first 30 days you will not have the start fee, which means you can onboard totally free.
If you like to share HexBay, you can share your referral link and get 4.7% in HEX immediately when your referee starts a stake, you do not need to own stakes to be able to refer
Richard Heart: “and I've been torn, some of these things don't have clear answers, so, part of me is of the belief, that HEX works amazing as is and that adding extra layers of encapsulation, may make it more liquid and then increase the velocity which then reduces the price
so, if its not rehypothecated in a way, where its derivative if its actually spot, in order for you to sell this much shares of the real stake you need to have purchased the real stake, then I'm pretty sure it works out
so, it, might current thinking on it, is that the encapsulation is a good deal particularly in a high fee environment and then if it turns out to suck you can always just de-emphasize them, like oh, okay we checked it out, it sucked, okay well we aren't going to talk about it anymore, its worth trying you know and if the analogy holds that its just like Grayscale, then its an obvious no brainer
if the analogy doesn't hold and it was incorrectly formed, which it might be, this is probably worth a good week of deep thought, I haven't been a good week of good thought into it, if, right now, so like, people message and are like “I don't understand the 15 year stake thing”, okay I get it, you're a pleb you don't understand long term thinking, fine, its okay, still a guy like that might want to benefit of being a member of a pool that takes advantage of longer stakes, so at some point an efficient market is just going to figure out that, you know, that if you have an audited contract, it might be worth the trade to have a larger attack surface, that you try to buy down the risk with audits, in order to get three times the interest,
because right now, if you want to get a 60% interest stake you need to have a 15 year stake, well if someone does a Layer 2 and then makes a 15 year stake and then sells shares of it and they become tradeable, you're getting 15 year stake profit, but you’re also able to get in and out whenever you want, but the price that you're paying for that is the increased attack surface, which you can buy down that price with audits,
so like, someone's already written the code to do that and its already in the dev chat, and its just like, I wouldn't promote it, but with where fees are at, I would probably just promote it as an experiment, and release that onto some Layer 2 or Matic or whatever, whatever sidechain thing is going on, Ive got like 5 I can name off the top of my head, because it would alleviate for the people who want to trade, it would alleviate their gas problems, because now you can take one mainnet Ethereum 15 year stake that's getting 60% interest and then trade that, the shares of that, on the fast cheap Layer 2 and you know, its worth a try
by the way, if you wanted to do that, I've had several calls with lawyers about basically doing that same thing on the OTC bulletin board just like Grayscale does, right now Grayscale gives you virtualized Bitcoin, and I think a cool product would be virtualized 15 year HEX stakes … I guess encapsulated 15 year HEX stakes in a trust or similar corporate structure would ease onramping for people like Grayscale has done … it seems like a good idea to me, but the setup costs are half a million so its like, expensive you know”
“I like to see people buy HEX, I dont like to see them buying other stuff… you can see encapsulated stakes run on other networks, for instance on Tether right, you can trade Tether on Tron, you can trade Tether on EOS, you can trade Tether on Ethereum, you can actually even trade Tether on Bitcoin, believe it or not, as stupid as that it is, that used to be the only place you could trade Tether at the beginning but then they moved onto superior platforms, so encapsulated stakes could operate the same way, Id be okay with that
but like the HEX core functionality, it, its not a free ride to remove yourself from the very secure Ethereum network, because your options are okay proof of work change, fork Ethereum and now your attacked by botnets, okay, no proof of work change, fork Ethereum, merge mining?, maybe?, and then youre just like, there's just a shit load of complexity as to how to not get 51% attacked and then also be decentralized, so you could end up with federated things like EOS has 21 validators, I think the BNB thing has like 21 validators, so maybe you go 21 validator route and hope that that is good enough, probably it is but who knows so
I think it would be smarter and more beneficial for HEX to have Layer 2 things on other chains to suck some energy out of those chains, they're just dead ghost chains anyways, so if you launch anything on them it will get press, so I would I then, for HEX itself you'd get the street cred of “Oh we are so cool we did our own ghost chain hahaha”, so Id rather see encapsulated 15 year stakes on other networks then if ETH continues to suck for fees, if that didn't work, then Layer 2, same kind of thing, that like sharding splitting of HEX stakes on other networks, you can also do that on Layer 2 of Ethereum and it works okay
maybe, it would work okay for stake ladders if you're like doing a bunch, but then if it just continued to suck yeah to even send HEX costs like, I think right now it cost $8 to send HEX, but if it gets to $25 to send HEX you're like mannnn, I remember when this shit was like a penny, at that point maybe lets fork something and lets see if the community wants to switch over to the other thing you know
A lot of projects have moved from ETH mainnet to other things, like TRX and EOS and BNB and other shit right so its definitely doable, but you have to decide where you want to put your dev time … Hey Hex community Hex.com/dev, I hope you're listening, got free time charge someone a 3% fee to fool around with your encapsulated 15 year stakes on another network and go make your 3% and enjoy it baby go go go good opportunity for you guys”
Is multichain a possibility for HEX?
“With encapsulated HEX sure, but you know You really want to keep youre core accounting on one system You do not want, because what happens, its a computational issue with locking so in order for your system to operate properly, it needs all of the data, if it doesnt get all of its data it cant do its computation properly, so for instance, what percentage of the coins are staked today? who is staked and who is not, you must know that to properly pay people, and if you start to divide that logic up against different chains, when one chain has a fuckup, and sometimes they do, you break the whole system, because its waiting locked, for that whole input, so you really want all of your core logic in a single reliable 100% uptime system and Ethereum is the best of those
if you want to fuck around and have higher input or lower fees do so in encapsulated systems on the side that can fail or not and it doesnt affect everything you know, so if your cable modem goes down the rest of the internet doesnt give a shit, Layer 2 is the way to go or Sidechains other chains”
“Make a 5555 day stake on the mainnet and the private keys or whatever live you know, do some atomic swap shit or whatever figure it out, youre selling shares of the mainnet ethereum 5555 HEX stake on youre tier 2 or sidechain or whatever youre doing and then people will trade that, those shares, just like they trade Grayscale shares on OTC bulletin boards that represent real Bitcoin, youre going to trade your encapsulated HEX stakes that represent real HEX stakes and you can trade them in or out as fast as you want and as cheap as you want and all that shit and it will never see mainnet again unless you know you have a right of redemption, and at some point you know, your DAO or whatever could cause the contract to emergency end stake and rollup, you want to kill it or whatever, if you know want to let the stake go all the way to the end and the stake pays everyone out or whatever
the code is already done, you can already do encapsulated stakes with open source code that is available in the dev chat HEX.com/dev and find chat and the code is there, so you should be able to probably not too much adaptation required operate said encapsulated code on other networks that are already interoperable with Ethereum, optimistic rollups perhaps, a lot of options there guys”
- Richard Heart with Adam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XXqUwOxy3A&t=9092s
2 hour 31 minutes to 34 minutes - Day43 OG with Bloobum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC53ZHvR_Ys#t=1920
32 minutes to 40 minutes - Kryptosparbuch HexBay Interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_neHLEadCk - HexAsians
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICN0eeY6Wzc#t=4045
1 hour 7 minutes to 17 minutes - Knights of the Crypto Table
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1iauq6apsk
1 minute to 23 minutes - Discourse Syndicate Wake up with KNTX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ2Bnt3wrU4#t=45m05s
45 minutes to 1 hour 7 minutes - Bitfinesse
https://twitter.com/Bit_Finesse/status/1367604657552453635 - Hex Happy Hour
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSDgMoYpIrA
1 minute to 1 hour 30 minutes - Discourse Syndicate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t7a4AAs1FE#t=4620
1 hour 17 minutes — 1 hour 45 minutes - Day 43 OG
https://youtu.be/OoTWkBRg1JA - Whales Only
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S3vIxmjP5k - Mati Allin and Karim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY2khtztqyY#t=8260
2 hours 17 minutes to 3 hours 23 minutes - Conrad Zen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPoZTGbuT6g#t=1380
23 minutes to 32 minutes - Mati Allin with Hex Lion (Patrick)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnpyv9TmcHE
14 min — 16 min
26 min — 1hr 20 min - Late Show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jWwBAWx3GA#t=5345
1hr 29min to 1hr 41min
1hr 46min to 1hr 52min
What is HexBay?
https://hexbay.medium.com/hexbay-b18eeaefadf
How to Test?
https://togosh.medium.com/hexbay-win-testing-tradeable-hex-stakes-8ab75fbe3618
Join Telegram
https://t.me/hexbay
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